shoulder throws

[God]

when you do shoulder throws, do you use your hip to "assist"? whenever i do these, i use my shoulder as the fulcrum, but align the rest of my fabulously sculpted bod as if it were a standard hip throw, using my hips as a scoop but my shoulder as a fulcrum.

any theoretical thoughts on the subject?

also, are "wheel" throws where you get a hold between your opponents legs and lift them up like he-man supposed to have any mechanical advantage, because i see little to none...

[Kosh]

The only one i know where you do anything like lift from between their legs is a kind of lock throw. Its hard to explain though. You kind of use your shoulder to push at the back of their elbow and raise their leg. One hand holds their wrist, the other pushes their foot up...like i said its hard to explain.

[Jointlock]

We practice two different types of shoulder throws, one against the elbow(advanced shoulder throw) and one with the elbow bent(Shoulder throw). Both of them are taught to use the hip and legs to help the opponent over. In fact our shoulder throw is done more with in the crook of the elbow opposed to above the shoulder. Our advanced shoulder throw is done above the shoulder though.

As for the wheel throws that you speak of (we call them lifting throws) there is quite a bit of technique involved when executing them. You must get your hips below their center of gravity, and pull them in a circle down with one arm onto your lower back centered on your legs transfering most of their weight over, then pushing on their shin with the back of your wrist. If done correctly there is no strain on the back. It is more about transfering their weight over your back as opposed to picking them up off the ground and throwing them. By the time they are on your back their momentum is already going down in a circle around the bend that you create, and since you are lower than their center of gravity it is easy to just push them the rest of the way over. I have taught my students to do it to me and I weigh 210 lbs to their 150 lbs or so.

I also have to comment that when we practice throws they will be different then when doing them in the street. You might say that this goes against my quote below of "Fight how you train, and train how you fight" but let me explain. When throwing a person in the dojang we want to practice safety so the person being thrown knows how to fall and can land on his back safely and slap, and the person doing the throwing can sometimes soften the fall and hold the person thrown. This way we can practice much more efficiently.

In all reality throws are not going to look pretty, especially for the person being thrown. When throwing someone in a serious situation we want them to land on their wrists, head, neck, and shoulders. We want them to land in the worst way possible. Not like in the movies where a beautiful throw sending the bad guys flying through the air to land cleanly on their backs. A throw should end a fight.

[God]

to be honest, i understand you obviously know a great deal more about throwing than me, but some of these throws that i've experienced in hapkido are VERY easy to either counter or minimize...the wheel throws, i mean, you've got a lot to grip when you're hanging around up there...or so it seems. that's just what i think. feel free to critique

[Jointlock]

Thanks for the complement.

Just like all techniques these throws have a time and place. It is supposed to be quick and to the point. You probably won't be picking them up, spinning them around and throwing them onto a table like a WWF wrestler. Although, they can still be countered just like any other technique.

If you are practicing these throws with someone else, you both know that he is going to do this throw, so it is going to be easy to counter, but what if the guy popped you in the nose and watered up your eyes, then before you knew it you were flipping head over heals.

There is a time and a place for every technique, no technique is 100% effective 100% of the time. This is why non-resistance and harmony should be stressed. If a technique is not working don't fight it, use the path of least resistance and do a technique that goes with the flow.

[God]

touche, sir!