biometric training?!

[gemtkd]

I don't know if I'm in the right place, but basically I need to get enough strength to be able to do half decent jumping techniques! Never been my strong point TBH, but since I've had my kids, I've had 2 C-Sections, and my 2corset muscles split really bad!! I haven't had any jumping strength at all. Since I've been back at training my muscles have came back surprisingly well. But if I do more than maybe 20 sit ups my stomach goes in to these freaky contractions, they hurt so bad, last time I almost went to the hospital!

Can anyone help me on this?? I need to get up to a reasonable level, I'm training for my bb and I want to be the best I can!!

thanks x

[Van Zandt]

I think you mean plyometric training? Jumping up on a box of steadily increasing height, bounding lunges, depth jumps, basically anything with an explosive movement which closely resembles the activity you wish to do.

[Atre]

- How are you doing the situps? eg. Crunches or a full body raise keeping a straight line hip-shoulder

- Were do these contractions occur exactly?

- How long since your C-section? What did the doctors say at the time with regards to injury?

- What else do you do that involves these muscles and what level of training can you do there without triggering an adverse reaction? Can you suspend yourself for dips/chins? legraises? Hold the plank position? etc...

- Any other exercise that triggers this stomach pain?

Best,
Atre

[slipthejab]

How long was it since you last gave birth? You'll want to give it a while till you start in with exercises again. Somewhere around 6 weeks after birth is generally recommended as you very gradually start to get back to exercising. It took you a lot longer than 6 weeks to add the extra weight and let your baby grow and for you body to make the adjustments to supporting two... so getting back to shape is going to take some time as well. Patience is key. :)

You'll want to do a check to see if you are suffering fromdiastasis recti. Diastasis recti is a condition that pregnant women experience in which the rectus abdominis muscle separates due to the pressure the growing fetus places on the abdominal wall. If you’ve had more than one child then your chances are higher that you will have this condition.

There are many ways to check if you have this - but here's a basic straight forward one:

http://babyfit.sparkpeople.com/pregnancy-exercise.asp?ID=297&extype=pp

The image below gives you an idea of what it actually is. Remember most likely there will have been damage/modifications to not only the muscle tissues but also the the myofascial and connective tissues as well.

Here are some tips for post-partum core rebuilding. These are very basic. But very gradual and basic is what you need after having kids. It takes time. Since you mentioned how painful the contractions were last time you crunched I'm wondering if they weren't cramps or spasms due to a diastasis recti condition.

Let me know if this helps. :)

[gemtkd]

Hi!

Yes I did mean plyometric lol, my brain wasn't working with me!! Yes, I do/did have Diastasis recti! My muscles have only recently come back together! It had split really bad, and was much worse on my left than my right! It's been 2 years since I had my last c section; and only since January I've been doing proper regular exercise, and at the moment it's only once a week.

The contraction like pain comes from low down, genuinely like labour! At first I thought it was bad ligament stretchy type pain, but then it got so bad; after about half an hour of bad pain it eased up!

I can hold the plank (well the pain doesn't come after) and when doing sit ups (like crunches) it's also fine, it's maybe half an hour - an hour before the pain starts up.

[Socrastein]

Stop doing sit-ups and crunches. There's no reason you should be doing them even if they're pain free, so if they hurt then that's one more reason on a very long list to never do them again.

If stabilization movements like the plank aren't an issue then your core work should be comprised solely of similar exercises. In fact, core work should always involve resisting movement at the spine rather than creating it.

[slipthejab]

Stop doing sit-ups and crunches. There's no reason you should be doing them even if they're pain free, so if they hurt then that's one more reason on a very long list to never do them again.

If stabilization movements like the plank aren't an issue then your core work should be comprised solely of similar exercises. In fact, core work should always involve resisting movement at the spine rather than creating it.

hmmmm... interesting.

So you don't see the need for crunches? What's your rationale behind this?
So if crunches and similar movements are out I'm curious what you use to develop the frontal flexor chain? While I'm all for everyone developing the deeper core muscles like the transverse abdominus I can't see the point in ignoring rectus abdominus all together.

What about rotational movements when doing core work? Are those out as well?

[Socrastein]

Slip

Nearly every sit-up or crunch variation places an inordinate amount of compressive force on the lumbar spine. Relative to the amount of abdominal stimulation one actually receives, the risk to reward is one of the most ridiculous ratios in exercise science. I can dig up exact numbers when I'm at work tomorrow and have access to my Stuart McGill book.

Aside from the stress to the lower back, most sit-up variations promote mobility in the lumbar region due to the repeated flexion (or flexion/extension if you use your Bender Ball) and often rotation when elbow to knee touches and other twisting variations are added.

The lumbar spine is not meant for mobility, and this is reflected in the connecting musculature and the limited degrees of rotation in the lumbar vertebrae themselves, relative to the thoracic vertebrae.

From a postural stand point, the last thing the average person (read: anyone) needs is repeated flexion of either their lumbar or thoracic spine, as we tend to spend so much time hunched over computers in a chair anyway. By repeatedly bringing the rib cage toward the pelvis, we only exacerbate any kyphotic issues already present.

Specific to the rectus abdominis, if this muscle was meant for flexing the trunk it would look more like our hamstrings or biceps muscles. The reason it has the beaded pattern is so that it can connect with fascia of the external obliques, internal obliques, and transverse abdominis at various lateral intervals to manage hoop stress created through intense core bracing.

In other words, it's primarily designed to prevent movement and rotation of the core, yet we typically think of trunk flexion when we want to target it.

So, what does that leave for us to do if we are to try and train the core as it's made to work, by resisting flexion/extension/rotation forces?

Anterior chain: ab wheel roll-outs, push-up and plank variations, medicine ball slams and throws, sledge hammer strikes, etc.

Don't forget that to maintain spinal integrity the anterior chain must contract relative to the strength of contraction of the posterior chain during movements like squats and deadlifts. So if your posterior chain is strong enough to lift 300+ pounds off the floor, you can bet your anterior chain is brutally strong as well.

To train the rotational musculature of the core, you can use any and all movements that require resisting rotation, and you'll get a better effect without the repeated twisting of the spine. Thoracic rotation isn't a problem at all.

I actually just got back from the gym where my wife and I were pulling a sled with a few hundred pounds on it and a long rope. We squat down low, brace our lumbar region, and rotate through the thoracic region as we pull the sled by going hand over hand with the rope.

You could also use the Pallof press:

YouTube - Pallof Press

I also like one arm dumbbell bench presses, one arm standing cable rows, lots of hard hooks to the heavy bag (you shouldn't rotate at the lumbar spine if you do it right), farmer walks, suitcase walks, one arm push-ups, etc.

You can take almost any exercise and come up with a variation that resists the motion that you normally create, hitting the same musculature in the way they're meant to work without damaging the spine or placing excessive loads upon the wrong areas.

[slipthejab]

Awesome response and great food for thought! This will now consume my whole day! :p

[Jabby Mcgee]

Slip

Nearly every sit-up or crunch variation places an inordinate amount of compressive force on the lumbar spine. Relative to the amount of abdominal stimulation one actually receives, the risk to reward is one of the most ridiculous ratios in exercise science. I can dig up exact numbers when I'm at work tomorrow and have access to my Stuart McGill book.

Aside from the stress to the lower back, most sit-up variations promote mobility in the lumbar region due to the repeated flexion (or flexion/extension if you use your Bender Ball) and often rotation when elbow to knee touches and other twisting variations are added.

The lumbar spine is not meant for mobility, and this is reflected in the connecting musculature and the limited degrees of rotation in the lumbar vertebrae themselves, relative to the thoracic vertebrae.

From a postural stand point, the last thing the average person (read: anyone) needs is repeated flexion of either their lumbar or thoracic spine, as we tend to spend so much time hunched over computers in a chair anyway. By repeatedly bringing the rib cage toward the pelvis, we only exacerbate any kyphotic issues already present.

Specific to the rectus abdominis, if this muscle was meant for flexing the trunk it would look more like our hamstrings or biceps muscles. The reason it has the beaded pattern is so that it can connect with fascia of the external obliques, internal obliques, and transverse abdominis at various lateral intervals to manage hoop stress created through intense core bracing.

In other words, it's primarily designed to prevent movement and rotation of the core, yet we typically think of trunk flexion when we want to target it.

So, what does that leave for us to do if we are to try and train the core as it's made to work, by resisting flexion/extension/rotation forces?

Anterior chain: ab wheel roll-outs, push-up and plank variations, medicine ball slams and throws, sledge hammer strikes, etc.

Don't forget that to maintain spinal integrity the anterior chain must contract relative to the strength of contraction of the posterior chain during movements like squats and deadlifts. So if your posterior chain is strong enough to lift 300+ pounds off the floor, you can bet your anterior chain is brutally strong as well.

To train the rotational musculature of the core, you can use any and all movements that require resisting rotation, and you'll get a better effect without the repeated twisting of the spine. Thoracic rotation isn't a problem at all.

I actually just got back from the gym where my wife and I were pulling a sled with a few hundred pounds on it and a long rope. We squat down low, brace our lumbar region, and rotate through the thoracic region as we pull the sled by going hand over hand with the rope.

You could also use the Pallof press:

YouTube - Pallof Press (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmcH0UsXRVw)

I also like one arm dumbbell bench presses, one arm standing cable rows, lots of hard hooks to the heavy bag (you shouldn't rotate at the lumbar spine if you do it right), farmer walks, suitcase walks, one arm push-ups, etc.

You can take almost any exercise and come up with a variation that resists the motion that you normally create, hitting the same musculature in the way they're meant to work without damaging the spine or placing excessive loads upon the wrong areas.

Socrastein - would you be able to point me towards some good references with regards to this? Not that I don't believe you - what you said actually makes perfect sense thinking about it - I am interested in learning a bit more about it.

[RJDefaye]

Man, that was informative. Still, when i do sit ups and crunches i get amazing results and i don't have back problems. Dunno. I'm not smart enough with this kind of thing.

[Microlamia]

Man, that was informative. Still, when i do sit ups and crunches i get amazing results and i don't have back problems. Dunno. I'm not smart enough with this kind of thing.

Me neither. I'm hypermobile everywhere though including lumbar spine. Might that be something to do with it?

[Socrastein]

Slip and Jabby

You can find a tremendous amount of research on which I base most of my recommendations in Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance by Stuart McGill, PhD.

From the book:

"Even the traditional slow-speed sit-up imposes approximately 3300N (730 lbs) of compression on the spine (Axler and McGill, 1997), a criterion injury level set by some governments!"

In other words, a set of sit-ups puts the spine under levels of stress that surpass what many government regulations deem to be tolerable safety margins!

Man, that was informative. Still, when i do sit ups and crunches i get amazing results and i don't have back problems.

Be careful not to confuse back pain with back problems. I imagine that while you might not currently hurt, you have a great amount of dysfunction that you are unaware of due to your repeated flexion exercises. What we don't know eventually will hurt us.

Also, how can you be sure you get great results from sit ups and crunches? Without being able to isolate variables in your training scientifically, how do you know something else you do/have done can't account for your perceived results?

[Jabby Mcgee]

Slip and Jabby

You can find a tremendous amount of research on which I base most of my recommendations in Ultimate Back Fitness and Performance by Stuart McGill, PhD.

From the book:

"Even the traditional slow-speed sit-up imposes approximately 3300N (730 lbs) of compression on the spine (Axler and McGill, 1997), a criterion injury level set by some governments!"

In other words, a set of sit-ups puts the spine under levels of stress that surpass what many government regulations deem to be tolerable safety margins!



Be careful not to confuse back pain with back problems. I imagine that while you might not currently hurt, you have a great amount of dysfunction that you are unaware of due to your repeated flexion exercises. What we don't know eventually will hurt us.

Also, how can you be sure you get great results from sit ups and crunches? Without being able to isolate variables in your training scientifically, how do you know something else you do/have done can't account for your perceived results?

Thanks Socrastein. ima go to Amazon right now :)

[Atre]

"Even the traditional slow-speed sit-up imposes approximately 3300N (730 lbs) of compression on the spine (Axler and McGill, 1997), a criterion injury level set by some governments!"

About the same as squatting 340kgs?! This must be an estimate that considers compression at the front of the vertebral disc when the back curls.

What's the thinking on situps with a dead straight torso? Core is holding the entire upper rigid while a few muscles lever you upright.

I can't see the harm in this because it doesn't train stupid muscle reaction and the key problem in situps (flexure of lumbar spine and squiding the anterior of ya discs) isn't present - obviously I could be wrong here :D.

[Socrastein]

About the same as squatting 340kgs?! This must be an estimate that considers compression at the front of the vertebral disc when the back curls.

The relationship between the load on your back and the compressive load experienced in the lumbar spine is not linear as you seem to be assuming. You have to take into account the leverages involved as well as the amount of stress the muscular contractions themselves create.

Cappozzo et al. found that a parallel squat with only about 160% of one's bodyweight created 10x bodyweight in compressive load on the lumbar spine.That's around 7000N even for a relatively small 150lb lifter.

Before anyone says "Well then what's wrong with situps, a heavy squat places way more load on the spine!" you should keep in mind that situps place hundreds of pounds of compression on a FLEXED spine while a proper squat places hundreds of pounds of compression on a NEUTRAL AND BRACED spine.

It takes upwards of 15,000N of compression to buckle a neutral spine. That number is much lower when the spine is flexed, which is why disc herniations occur during a fully flexed position. In fact it's nearly impossible to herniate a disc if the spine isn't close to full flexion.

What's the thinking on situps with a dead straight torso? Core is holding the entire upper rigid while a few muscles lever you upright.

Nearly every sit-up variation already stresses the hip flexors primarily. By keeping the spine neutral you place even more of the load on your hip flexors, effectively turning the movement into isolated hip flexion. Considering that everyone has shortened hip flexors and weak inhibited hip extensors the last thing anyone needs to do is load up their hip flexors in such a manner. The stimulus to the core muscles would be minimal relative to other exercises one could use instead.

[Frodocious]

Thanks Socrastein. ima go to Amazon right now :)

As you're in the UK, I wouldn't recommend buying it from Amazon, you'll pay a fortune for it!

Get it from here:

http://www.aecc-spinecentre.co.uk/products/books-dvds-49/mcgill-ultimate-back-fitness-and-performance-4th-ed-3625.aspx

or here:

http://www.uksca.org.uk/uksca/Common/productList.asp?txtItemTypeID=12

and make sure it's the 4th edition

http://www.backfitpro.com/books.php

[Jabby Mcgee]

As you're in the UK, I wouldn't recommend buying it from Amazon, you'll pay a fortune for it!

Get it from here:

http://www.aecc-spinecentre.co.uk/products/books-dvds-49/mcgill-ultimate-back-fitness-and-performance-4th-ed-3625.aspx

or here:

http://www.uksca.org.uk/uksca/Common/productList.asp?txtItemTypeID=12

and make sure it's the 4th edition

http://www.backfitpro.com/books.php

thanks Frodocious. Always looking to save money :D

[RJDefaye]

I just base my results on the fact that when I don't do situps for six months my abs go sloppy, and when I start doing them again they go all tight and defined. But like I said before I'm not smart enough for the scientific side of things. Other abdomial exercises I've done just done have the same effect and I stretch out all the time between sets and after. Been doing that since I was a teenager but sometimes i get lazy and don't do them for a few months at a time.

RJ

[Atre]

Nearly every sit-up variation already stresses the hip flexors primarily. By keeping the spine neutral you place even more of the load on your hip flexors, effectively turning the movement into isolated hip flexion. Considering that everyone has shortened hip flexors and weak inhibited hip extensors the last thing anyone needs to do is load up their hip flexors in such a manner. The stimulus to the core muscles would be minimal relative to other exercises one could use instead.

Good post.

Although wouldn't the major hip extensors be your glutes and adductor magnus? Them's pretty big muscles to worry about their being the weak set in an (effectively) antagonist pair.

What am I missing?

[Socrastein]

What am I missing?

While a muscle may have a large surface area, if the nervous system isn't efficient at recruiting the motor units in the muscle then it doesn't matter how big it is; it can still be very weak and inhibited.

There are many reasons why most people can barely fire their glutes, not the least of which is reciprocal inhibition due to the extremely short and stiff hip flexors nearly everyone has. The tighter a muscle gets, the looser and more inhibited its antagonist becomes.

[Atre]

Kl thanks. Think you mean "cross section" rather than "surface area" though :P.

Fortunately years of rowing have given me a mighty fine posterior so I don't worry about such things [edit: tongue in cheek comment].

Do you know a test for Hip flexor stiffness/flexibility? I'd be interested to see what mine is like...

[Socrastein]

Think you mean "cross section" rather than "surface area"

As a matter of fact I did ;) I considered saying cross section, but figured more people would understand what I meant if I just said surface area. I suppose volume would have been a better compromise :p I'm always trying to strike a balance between how accurate my posts are and how easy to understand they are.

Fortunately years of rowing have given me a mighty fine posterior so I don't worry about such things.

A strong posterior chain is measured primarily by how much you can deadlift.

While years or rowing has likely developed a lot of endurance in your muscles and given you great motor control of them, you can only build strength with progressive overload, and you can't get that in rowing unless you slowly add flour or some other thickening agent to the water over time :)

As for testing hip flexor length, you can try the Thomas test. Lay with your back flat on a table and your lower legs hanging over the sides (so your knee joint is resting on the corner). Grab one of your knees and pull it toward your chest as far as you can until you feel your low back flatten against the table. Now while laying their have someone examine the resting thigh. If it rises off the table at all, you have an issue with your illiopsoas muscles. Make sure to test both sides.

You can also test for isolated hip extension to see how well your body can fire your glute max. I use this test as part of my initial assessment of every client:

Get on the floor and place your forearms flat on the ground while flexing the hip and knee of one leg as much as you can. This will bring you knee up to your chest, and you want to relax your upper body so your ribs are resting on your thigh. Your other leg should be extended behind you laying flat on the floor.

From this position you try to lift the extended leg off the floor a couple inches without bending the knee or moving the torso (the ribs should stay relaxed against the thigh of the flexed leg). You can have someone place their hand on your lower back to see if you're raising up as you attempt to extend the hip. If you can lift your knee and ankle completely off the floor without moving your upper body and losing contact between your torso and thigh, then your glute activation is adequate, at least in straight leg hip extension.

Most people fail miserably at the test, and those who think they pass often are doing it wrong. I've only ever had a single person pass this test on the first assessment, and she was from a third world country and grew up having to squat down to a floor toilet, so not only did her glutes work the way they should be she also had a great looking deep squat.